TERRY GROSS, HOST:
That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. To conclude our archive collection R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock ‘n’ Roll, we’ve the interview I recorded with Allen Toussaint, who was in our studio on the piano and sang among the early hit songs he wrote. Toussaint was an essential however principally behind the scenes determine in New Orleans rhythm and blues throughout the ’50s and ’60s, when R&B was shaping the sound of early rock ‘n’ roll. Early in his profession, he was the chief songwriter, producer, arranger and pianist for Minit Data, which on the time was crucial New Orleans document firm. He and a companion shaped their very own label within the ’60s.
The songs he wrote and/or organized and produced embody “Working In The Coal Mine,” “Mom-In-Legislation,” “Lipstick Traces,” “Ruler Of My Coronary heart,” It is Raining,” “Proper Place Incorrect Time,” “Girl Marmalade,” “Sure We Can” and “Southern Nights.” Among the many musicians he labored with had been the Meters, the Rolling Stones, Paul Simon, the Band and Paul McCartney. After stepping out from behind the scenes, Toussaint additionally turned recognized for his personal recordings and performances, together with his collaboration with Elvis Costello. Toussaint died in 2015 on the age of 77. I spoke with him in 1988.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: Allen Toussaint, welcome again to FRESH AIR.
ALLEN TOUSSAINT: Thanks.
GROSS: I’ll ask you, I’ll begin with a request (laughter) to play one of many songs – one of many first songs that was a giant hit for you that you just wrote, “Mom-In-Legislation”?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, sure, it was considered one of our very first ones.
GROSS: This was initially recorded by Ernie Okay-Doe.
TOUSSAINT: Proper.
GROSS: May you play it for us your approach?
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) The worst particular person I do know, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She worries me so, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Each time I open my mouth, she steps in and tries to place me out. How may she stoop so low? Mom-in-law, mother-in-law. Mom-in-law, mother-in-law. Why, Devil may’ve been her identify, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. To me, they’re about the identical, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. If she’d depart us alone, we might have a contented residence. Despatched from down beneath, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Mom-in-law, mother-in-law. I come residence with my pay, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She requested me what I made, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She thinks her recommendation is a contribution, but when she would depart that may be the answer. And do not come again no extra, mother-in-law, mother-in-law, mother-in-law.
GROSS: So how outdated had been you if you wrote that?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, let’s have a look at. I assume 21 or 22.
GROSS: Had been you married?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, no.
GROSS: Proper (laughter).
TOUSSAINT: However mother-in-law was a nationwide joke.
GROSS: That is true. It actually was on the time. Issues have modified (laughter).
TOUSSAINT: The mother-in-laws themselves weren’t nationwide jokes, however most comedians used to make use of that.
GROSS: That is proper. So how did you first begin writing songs?
TOUSSAINT: Nicely, I got here up imitating most individuals that I heard on the radio. I imitated most piano gamers, in fact, and most every kind of music. And after I’d play and turn into completely saturated with it, I’d sit and randomly mess around. So little melodies got here, and that began my writing.
GROSS: You already know, I feel two of your influences have been Fat Domino and Professor Longhair, two of the nice New Orleans musicians. Do you assume that – I imply, I feel they are often heard in your fashion. Would you play one thing of theirs and inform us how they affected you?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, sure. Nicely, Professor Longhair, I have to say, of the native individuals – native which means New Orleans and the New Orleans space – has been the strongest affect on my taking part in, and even a few of my writing, the way in which I assemble sure issues. Early Professor Longhair, issues like…
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: After I first heard that as a baby, that simply knocked me out. And afterward, Professor Longhair started so as to add issues to his music like…
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: Sure, he was very, crucial to me.
GROSS: Was it arduous to study that if you had been younger?
TOUSSAINT: Not arduous. It was very, very thrilling. As soon as I heard it, I may get entangled. It was simply the concept of it, how distinctive it was to me. It was off the overwhelmed path of most different issues that had been all typically associated in some trend. However Professor Longhair did not appear associated to anybody else who was on the market on the time.
GROSS: Now, I keep in mind considered one of your early recording classes was filling in for Fat Domino as a result of his piano monitor hadn’t been laid down but. You actually may play in Fat Domino’s fashion, Professor Longhair’s and Ray Charles’. How did you discover ways to play like Fat Domino?
TOUSSAINT: Nicely, Fat Domino was flooding the market. He had so many recordings out. And he found a secret to success with triplets.
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: In order a baby, that was – I may instantly hear what that was. And most of his recordings had that in it, apart from one, “The Fats Man,” which I assumed was very thrilling. However he by no means recorded any extra like that, which was a really totally different type of piano. It was type of raunchy, like…
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: Which was great, however he by no means performed like that once more besides perhaps on one different tune. The remainder of them was – turned out to be principally…
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: Just like the one, “I Need You To Know,” that I performed on it.
GROSS: Proper, proper, proper.
TOUSSAINT: Dave Bartholomew, who knew that I may play like a lot of the folks that had been out on the time, referred to as me in to play on a Fat Domino recording session. We had been as much as two tracks at the moment, so we may do great issues. And he referred to as me in to play like Fat would play this tune, and I went in and did…
(PIANO PLAYING)
GROSS: That is actually nice (laughter). My visitor, in case you’re simply becoming a member of us, is Allen Toussaint. And I ought to say, you understand, I at all times, you understand, every time I’ve stated your identify, at some point it will be Toussaint and at some point it will be Toussaint. And so I requested you ways I ought to actually say it, and also you stated Toussaint. However your father’s aspect of the household used to say Toussaint?
TOUSSAINT: My father used to say Toussaint with no T on the tip.
GROSS: It appears quite common for New Orleans households to have totally different pronunciations of their names.
TOUSSAINT: Oh, sure. Bagneris, Bagneris, sure.
GROSS: We’re listening to my 1988 interview with Allen Toussaint. We’ll hear extra of it after a break. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “YES WE CAN CAN”)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) Yeah. I do know we will make it if we strive. Oh, sure, we will. I do know we will, can. Sure, we will. Nice gosh almighty, sure, we will. I do know we will, can.
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my 1988 interview with Allen Toussaint, who first made his mark as one of many key songwriters, arrangers and producers in New Orleans R&B of the ’50s and ’60s.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: I’ll ask you to play one other tune of yours, a tune that you just wrote. Possibly do one other considered one of your early hits.
TOUSSAINT: Nicely, “Lipstick Traces.” The man, Benny Spellman, that sung the bass half on “Mom-In-Legislation,” he did not know what it was value on the time we had been doing it. However when “Mom-In-Legislation” got here out and offered and went to No. 1, to illustrate, Benny Spellman that sung the bass half made present that everybody throughout the sound of his voice bought to know that he sung that half. And he would go round – he would gig primarily based on he sung the low half on “Mom-In-Legislation.” And he inspired me…
GROSS: (Laughter).
TOUSSAINT: …With a lot power to put in writing him a tune that he may use that idea. And one results of that was this tune, “Lipstick Traces.”
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) Your fairly brown eyes. You wavy hair. I will not go residence no extra ‘trigger you are not there. I’ve bought it unhealthy, like I informed you earlier than. I am so in love with you. Do not depart me no extra. Lipstick traces on a cigarette. Each reminiscence lingers with me but. I’ve bought it unhealthy, like I informed you earlier than. I am so in love with you. Do not depart me no extra. Will not you come again residence? Will not you come again residence? ‘Trigger I am loopy about you, cannot do with out you. Will not you come again residence? Lipstick traces on a cigarette. Each reminiscence lingers with me but. I’ve bought it unhealthy, like I informed you earlier than. I am so in love with you, do not depart me no extra, depart me no extra. Do not depart me no extra, depart me no extra. Mom-in-law, mother-in-law. Do not depart me no extra.
I assume you’ll be able to see how that occurred.
GROSS: (Laughter) He actually owed you one after you wrote that for him.
TOUSSAINT: Oh, thanks.
GROSS: (Laughter) I find it irresistible when you are able to do each components as you are singing the excessive half and the low half.
TOUSSAINT: Oh, thanks. Sure.
GROSS: (Laughter) Now, one other tune you wrote that was a giant hit, I assume it was the early ’60s, “Working In The Coal Mine.”
TOUSSAINT: Oh, sure.
GROSS: Lee Dorsey recorded it?
TOUSSAINT: Lee Dorsey, sure.
GROSS: Now, I keep in mind after I interviewed you a couple of months again, you defined that you just had by no means been in a coal mine if you wrote this tune.
TOUSSAINT: Not solely by no means been, I do not know nobody – know anybody who’s ever been in a coal mine. And I do not know why that got here. Lee Dorsey was an important inspiration for me. When it was time to put in writing for him, I’d simply sit again and start to take heed to the sound of his voice. And at some point, whereas sitting on St. Philip Road in New Orleans, I heard him saying working within the coal mine, happening, down, down. I don’t know why. However he was an important inspiration. His voice gave the impression of a smile to me, and I wrote plenty of songs for him. Sure.
GROSS: Would you do it for us?
TOUSSAINT: We’ll give it a go.
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) Working within the coal mine, happening, down, down. Working within the coal mine, about to slide down. Working within the coal mine, happening, down. Working within the coal mine, about to slide down. 5 o’clock within the morning, I am already up and gone. Lord, I am so drained. How lengthy can this go on now? Working within the coal mine, happening, down, down. Working within the coal mine, about to slide down. Working within the coal mine, happening, down, down. Working within the coal mine, about to slide down. In fact, I make a bit cash hauling coal by the ton. However when Saturday rolls round, I am too drained for having enjoyable. Too drained for enjoyable now. Working within the coal mine, happening, down. Working within the coal mine, about to slide down. Working within the coal mine, happening, down, down. Working within the coal mine, about to slide down. Lord, I am so drained. How lengthy can this go on?
GROSS: Good, that sounds nice. Songwriter, pianist, producer, singer Allen Toussaint is my visitor. And I’ll ask you to do one other tune. You already know, I have been listening to a variety of Irma Thomas these days. She has a brand new document out. And also you wrote a few of her early songs. And also you wrote a tune she sings on her new document, as a matter of truth. I’ll ask you to sing considered one of her earlier songs that you just wrote for her referred to as “It is Raining.” Would you try this?
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) It is raining so arduous. Appears to be like like it’ll rain all night time. And that is the time I would like to be holding you tight. I assume I will have to just accept the truth that you are not right here. I want this rain would hurry up and finish my expensive. I’ve bought the blue so unhealthy, I can hardly catch my breath. And the tougher it rains, the more serious it will get. That is the time I would like to be holding you tight, however I assume I will simply go loopy tonight.
GROSS: Is there a narrative behind penning this tune?
TOUSSAINT: Nicely, with Irma, once more, she was sitting proper there that day. And it was raining. And Irma was an important inspiration for me. I may write for her all day lengthy, and generally I did.
GROSS: (Laughter).
TOUSSAINT: And she or he was sitting there, and it was raining, and I may see the rain hitting on the windowpane. And it was simply good, sure.
GROSS: Nicely, it has actually been such a pleasure to listen to you play and sing. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of us, actually. Thanks very, very a lot.
TOUSSAINT: My pleasure.
GROSS: Allen Toussaint recorded in 1988. He died in 2015. He was 77. And with that, we conclude our archive collection R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock ‘n’ Roll. I hope you loved it. After a break, our jazz historian Kevin Whitehead remembers alto saxophonist Artwork Pepper, who was born 100 years in the past right now. That is FRESH AIR.
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